Curse

BahamutKaiser · May 07, 2006, 05:29 AM // 05:29

AoE Nuking and DoT are a unique and defining ability that Elementist have, it shouldn't be ineffective overall in PvP. Because PvE enemies run away from DoT damage, and even AoE damage, it realy isn't alot better, anyone can kill a bunch of PvE enemies easier because they don't maintain their health the way a party does, that doesn't make Nuking better in PvE, PvE is simply easier for any class.

AoE on nukes arn't that bad, only that certain classes can deflect a great deal of the damage. DoT is the real difficulty, with the high cost, short durations, and most of all, high recast times, not to mention high casting times..... these become minor effects which can only work effectively in a string of snares or on dumb foes. With so much cost and such easy counters, it should have an effect that leaves a mark. Although it may be balanced in cost and damage, the recast times shouldn't be longer then the duration, or the durations should be longer to meet the recast. Cast and Recast times are costs as well, spells which can't be used often enough to contiously battle put elementist at a serious disadvantage. Wile some spells are trumps which shouldn't be used often, DoT spells don't fall in this catagory, they are truely offesive defense techniques, DoT spells simply don't have decisive killing power.

There are alot of things an elementist can do very well, but even monk and ritualist are given strong attack skills so they can alternate as attack players, Elementist has some good snares and Wards in a few elements, but Fire should should have some powerful assisting skills as well, and alot of DoT spells need to be reworked to function against normal player, and even PvE reactions. Eruption and Searing Heat are prime examples of DoT which allow the enemy a grand opportunity to escape a significant part of the effect of the spell, with such easy evasive opportunities, and the spell cast and recast times, these spells become minor scares instead of effective techniques.

The tactical usefulness of a majority of elementist skills is issue, the select builds advanced skills which work together don't compare to a Warrior or Monk who can use the majority of their skills effectively. Even if they leave the current skills the way they are, they could add new skills which work better for elementist, like powerful at caster location DoT skills, Elite DoT skills which hit an Area, same as a binding ritual, or easily recastable DoT skills. An elementist easily requires 3 skill slots for good energy management and minor restoration, having attack skills which can only be used every 30 seconds, or minute, which in turn don't even impact at full effectiveness doesn't allow Elementist to continue battle effectively. And since there are now 2 classes which can provide healing and protection with skills and spirits over an entire area, Elementist need to be able to damage over an entire area as well, even if it is very minor.

Right now, DoT spells arn't strong enough, nor last long enough to stop an enemy from advancing and killing you, they will either evade and return, or have enough armor to run right through it, if DoT spells could be cast repeatedly, and could be targeted on allies and self, then you could continoually bomb that area, forcing melee fighters to take the damage instead of being able to wait it out, it is still plenty easy to interrupt, and if they know your maintaining a DoT on an area, then it isn't hard for them to shut you down after even 2 casts, it would allow elementist to provide an offensive defense, with the same area of effect as a Ward, but with damage rather than conditions.

Another option would be to have alot more skill points available, but that is a game defining alteration, if Elementist could easily use 2 elements at full power as well as energy storage, then it would be much easier for them to ice snare along with DoT, providing medium AoE snare which will in turn prevent the enemy from escaping DoT damage, but that is very costly and difficult, as well prohibited by the lack of skill points available to power multiple elements.

Ensign · May 07, 2006, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Bed of Coals is actually very good at what it does. The only trouble is that it's clearly the second PBAoE on your bar after Flame Burst, and I personally have trouble justifying spending two skill slots on that role. Of course it isn't like these lines are so deep that you're really hurting for space.

Breath of Fire just amuses me for the AoE fear effect - basically it hits for near full damage since it only lasts for 5 seconds, and causes a short mes effect on whatever enemies it was on. I'm pretty sure I'm a minority, but I like the mes effect of the ticking AoEs against monsters. I don't think Breath is worth the skill slot, the recharge is simply horrible...but since you're usually going to have a lot of room on your bar it's worth toying with.

Peace,
-CxE

Neo's pet sandwich · May 07, 2006, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mandy Memory

You just noticed that ele is a subpar class and that they totally suck today? Where have you been the past year?

And eles only deal damage compairable to a warrior who isnt using any skills. If the warrior uses attack skills, he out damages the ele by a lot.

Ele is a lame support class.

Have you ever played ele? Do you even know what you're talking about?

Eles have one advantage over warriors thats so obvious i'm surprised no one has mentioned it. Everyone takes an anti warrior skill. Blind takes a warrior out of action in seconds, so does ward vs melee, so does magnetic aura, so does whirling defence.

What is there for anti ele: Dazed, the hardest condition to inflict in the game and any decent team can just remove it. Ward vs elements, no one uses this skill and when they do they just forget about it and concentrate on ward vs melee. E-surge, these only concentrate on the monks and the denial just plain isn't powerful enough to sap 70+ energy.

you're also forgetting eles can deal damage from a range and don't have to worry about monks running away from them. Anyone who can play monk knows to just run away from a warrior and lower their damage intake by alot.

And I haven't even touched on the fact that the damage is alot better than warriors if you know how to play it.

pah01 · May 07, 2006, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

I am sorry Dr Strangeglove that your beloved eles simply cant keep up with warriors except when things stand happily in your aoe effects to take damage.

Sam

I'm going to say this very slowly so you understand. Ready? No? Too bad. ELEMENTALISTS... CAN... DEAL... MORE... DAMAGE... THAN... A... WARRIOR. THEY... DEPEND... ON... THE... SITUATION... MORE. ELEMENTALISTS... HAVE... MANY... OTHER... USES.

Are we clear yet? Somehow I think you'll just come back and tell me "Eviscerate/Executioners does more damage than you, so you suck" Read what I've said very carefully. Maybe read it twice. Actaully play with an ele who doesn't use all long cooldown skills.

I didnt come back for two days because I thought you actually got it.

I dont deny that eles are good at other things. My guild uses a water/earth hybrid in GVG.

Now I will be nice.

THE NUMBER OF SITUATIONS WHERE AN ELEMENTALIST CAN DEAL MORE DAMAGE THAN A WARRIOR IS SO SMALL THAT IT IS IRRELEVENT AND THEREFORE THEY SUCK AT DOING DAMAGE.

OK GET IT???????????

Sam

Eden2k5 · May 07, 2006, 11:53 AM // 11:53

I had played an ele for quite a while a few months back, which I just stopped playing completley (still have the character though).

It was just dissapointing trying to do damage when your spells never did the listed damage. I agree eles are great as utility but thats about it.
Other professions have alot more versatility.

I enjoy mesmer the most, followed by warrior. Nothings funnier than babysitting a ele in PvP, waiting till a spell is about done to interrupt it :P

It would be nice if they revamped AoE spells so they are somehwat lower in damage per sec but have long durations, so you can effectivly lock down an area, and use that for strategics.

Neo's pet sandwich · May 07, 2006, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

I didnt come back for two days because I thought you actually got it.

I dont deny that eles are good at other things. My guild uses a water/earth hybrid in GVG.

Now I will be nice.

THE NUMBER OF SITUATIONS WHERE AN ELEMENTALIST CAN DEAL MORE DAMAGE THAN A WARRIOR IS SO SMALL THAT IT IS IRRELEVENT AND THEREFORE THEY SUCK AT DOING DAMAGE.

OK GET IT???????????

Sam

Erm... if you'd also read my post the amount of time a warrior is shut down is so much bigger than the number fo times an ele is that it makes it more balanced. If I get attacked by a warrior in any situation I do 1 of 2 things:
1.Shut it down and blast/cut it to bits.
2. run away and laugh as the team monks outheal its damage and it attacks them. Then blast/cut it to bits. warriors are only better than eles at being self sufficient. eles can do more damage in the long run.

Renegade ++RIP++ · May 07, 2006, 12:40 PM // 12:40

I just wished the aoe sizes were a lot bigger... heck even bigger then a size of a ward. Most non crippled/snared enemies can still get out of it fast enough. But at least the combination of snaring and aoe would make it semi worth the long recharge, the high basecost, the long casttimes and the standard feel of being a glass cannon. Maelstrom is a joke... so are meteorshower, firestom, etc... even with a normal non elite snare they are still subpar.

I like water trident(maybe if it had not suffered from lod), but in my mind it should never have been an elite. As for ward vs harm (maybe if it had been the extra armour and a blurred vision at once combo)... On top of that using any elite on an ele without ether prodigy or another energymanagementskill will in most cases neuter you faster then you can say usefull

Ensign · May 07, 2006, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo's pet sandwich

Erm... if you'd also read my post the amount of time a warrior is shut down is so much bigger than the number fo times an ele is that it makes it more balanced.

1) As soon as their warriors are not gunked up for 5 seconds they start wrecking people. They require constant attention to be kept in check - and if the other team is smart, they're being cleaned up consistently as well.
2) An elementalist in the most ideal of situations is not a threat to kill anyone. Their strongest offensive use, in fact, is holding people in place with snares for your warriors to kill them.
3) Why do you think the environment is choked with warrior shutdown but virtually no hate against elementalists?

Peace,
-CxE

Symbol · May 07, 2006, 10:49 PM // 22:49

You know it's interesting, PvE is supposed to be the last bastion of elementalist "power", but I've been running what is essentially a pvp warrior build optimized for maximum dps (dragon slash, standing slash, sun and moon slash, for great justice, rush , frenzy) and in every non pathological situation he outdamages my elementalist (both air and fire) by FAR. Sure I can see a fire ele laughing it up against those hordes of afflicted, but anywhere else the warrior kills so fast it's not even funny. It's kill one target, rush to the next, frenzy and kill the next in 5 secs, rush to the next. Furthermore, a huge chunk of the damage ignores armor entirely, so while the elementalist fails miserably on any remotely hard target, the warrior keeps on hacking happily away.

Makes me wonder why more people aren't running warriors in an offensive role in PvE...

Spazztic2003 · May 07, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Funny you say Eles suck, because just today I used an E/A, shadow stepped to an enemy Warrior, Infernoed, Pillared, and Phoenixed and he dropped, along with knocking down the health 50-75% of adjacent foes, then I teleported back.

It all comes down to how you use your Ele. I like to dish out quick damage and leave the battle quickly. Others like to stay and just go with it, knocking down one at a time. It really depends on your gameplay pace.

Evilsod · May 07, 2006, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Makes me wonder why more people aren't running warriors in an offensive role in PvE...

Because higher level monks can stop a warriors advance whatever you do. Trying to take down a lone Shadow Monk using a warrior is almost hopeless without a perfectly attuned build for it, effectively making you useless against the other things around there. What the warrior does is group everything together for elementalists to simply wipe them out using a 'short' combo of spells, the warrior just helps to mop up after they all flee. I have missed playing a proper warrior build in a team though, was beginning to get quite sick of been a stance tank and not actually doing any damage.

Its all down to the area, people go crazy for Elementalists on the last few missions, even though they utterly suck vs bosses and die in very few hits. 2 Eles nuking Willia and she can just get up and heal it all off in a single Orison. Using Eviscerate and you get twice as much unreducable damage than the Ele even does to them, not to mention you can Disrupt her healing making her useless.

healthsoldier0570 · May 08, 2006, 12:00 AM // 00:00

I don't think Elementalists suck at all. Without them, this game would be much more hard to beat. They can kock down enemies, set them on fire, and just plain out destroy them. They may die fast, but that is a plus. If you practice staying alive while still killing your enemy, you become better and better, so if you go back to your warrior or ranger, you will be much better at staying alive. That takes a lot of pressure off of a monk to not have to heal a warrior constantly. I am almost a full time monk so I know.

BrotherGilburt · May 08, 2006, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss Innocent

I don't know if I'm alone on this, but it seems like Ele kinda sucks. Their spells cost alot, but do damage comparable to a warrior (who doesn't use energy, and never really runs out). Ele's are also squishy and die easy, unlike a warrior.

It just seems like Warriors have everything: Armor, damage, health, healing, and that warrior doesn't need alot of help to smash everything.

On the other hand, it seems there's not really a reason to be an Ele anymore. I thought Ele was supposed to do damage.

Has anyone else been annoyed by how useless Ele has gotten? The necro and mesmer and better at debuffs, the warrior does better damage and has better armor, and the Ranger is pretty much like the warrior at range. Ele just seems like it got nerfed into oblivion (especially for PvE), and Ele doesn't really seem to serve a point anymore.

Damage comparable to a warrior? Ele's have 100+ damage attacks. Obsidian flame is an example. Sure not all skills deal that much but many of the skills deal way more damage than a warriors does.

Expensive skills, so what? Thats why they have Energy storage as an attribute. Ele's can get up to 100 energy. Also there are battery necro skills. Also there are plenty of Glyphs that reduce energy costs.

Squishy? Yes they do only have 60 armor. But there not supposed be the ones taking the damage. But if you do want to tank with your ele take earth armor buffs. An earthg ele can get +140 or more armor.

Ele's can still get lots of health +30 health mods aren't just one swords. Also warriors useually have more than 500hp because they don't use a sup rune.

Healing. Ele's don't have good heals. That why they aren't supposed to take all the aggro and damage. Also most ele's are E/Mo so they can heal.

The only problem with ele's is the nerf on AoE. Other wise there fine.

Brother Gilburt

Ira Blinks · May 08, 2006, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrotherGilburt

Damage comparable to a warrior? Ele's have 100+ damage attacks. Obsidian flame is an example. Sure not all skills deal that much but many of the skills deal way more damage than a warriors does.

Expensive skills, so what? Thats why they have Energy storage as an attribute. Ele's can get up to 100 energy. Also there are battery necro skills. Also there are plenty of Glyphs that reduce energy costs.

Squishy? Yes they do only have 60 armor. But there not supposed be the ones taking the damage. But if you do want to tank with your ele take earth armor buffs. An earthg ele can get +140 or more armor.

Ele's can still get lots of health +30 health mods aren't just one swords. Also warriors useually have more than 500hp because they don't use a sup rune.

Healing. Ele's don't have good heals. That why they aren't supposed to take all the aggro and damage. Also most ele's are E/Mo so they can heal.

The only problem with ele's is the nerf on AoE. Other wise there fine.

Brother Gilburt

you got it all backwards... every single point =\

Ace XL · May 08, 2006, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Half all casting times for the ele! really that should balance it, i used to like to play as a ele myself but when you've had a beastmaster ranger you dont want anything else, its just so much faster(tigers fury) and deals so awesome lot of damage its .... awesome! I like it when you can fight fast and agressive. About eles in pvp, last time i got killed in the time i casted a spell.... hilarious. And ever had this: you're nuking down a monk with a shipload of spells and when his health drops below 50% he just casts a healing touch and you can start over again. plz nerf healing!

Mandy Memory · May 09, 2006, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrotherGilburt

Damage comparable to a warrior? Ele's have 100+ damage attacks. Obsidian flame is an example. Sure not all skills deal that much but many of the skills deal way more damage than a warriors does.

My pen blow deals ~98 most of the time(not even the best attack)...and doesnt lower my maximum energy.

Quote:

Expensive skills, so what? Thats why they have Energy storage as an attribute. Ele's can get up to 100 energy. Also there are battery necro skills. Also there are plenty of Glyphs that reduce energy costs.

Yeah! way to justify it. You need other skills and a battery necro to nearly deal the same damage as an unsupported warrior! Way to go!

Quote:

Squishy? Yes they do only have 60 armor. But there not supposed be the ones taking the damage. But if you do want to tank with your ele take earth armor buffs. An earthg ele can get +140 or more armor.

But when the do take damage....They die...instantly. And getting +140 armor doesnt help when your enchantments get shattered (not that its not a good build, I actually run somthing like that)

Quote:

Ele's can still get lots of health +30 health mods aren't just one swords. Also warriors useually have more than 500hp because they don't use a sup rune.

Actually, all warriors (that matter) use a sup rune for their weapon. But I agree that all classes having the same health, because its true.

Quote:

Healing. Ele's don't have good heals. That why they aren't supposed to take all the aggro and damage. Also most ele's are E/Mo so they can heal.

No one really has good heals other than the necro and monk (and rit). And most e/mo have monk so that they can spam heal party. Spamming heal party is 10x the effectiveness of them actually casting their own spells.

Quote:

The only problem with ele's is the nerf on AoE. Other wise there fine.

Brother Gilburt

It would be...except they werent all that good before that either. That was just the last straw that pushed them from "nearly decent damage dealers" to "Unusable damage dealer".

And utility is the topic for another thread. (I saw one a while ago about how everything but warriors (except shout/stance warriors) was utility to help the warriors...)

Tien ak · May 09, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Dissagree with you all but agree on most parts of BrotherGilburt.

I think your armor idea is silly as eles don't have much health and to be honest when I had a W/E I used to buff her up with armor spells, They never do anything I found she still took them same amount of damage...

However I strongly agree on your energy storage point you made and the Damage points you made. I think what you guys really want is a Pro ele to say "no wait guys we do rock here's my secret ele build" Elementist are fine as they are they are amazing support chars as they can slow warriors down and kill em reasonably quick, not only that but an E/mo can cast some of the very powerfull defensive spells such as Eiges and Healing paty to lighten the load off monks. So if you helping your team mates in both offensive and defensive where is Elementists weakness?

This is no Diablo were the mage was the best char and can kill everything with one spell you guys need to get more elementist skills including elites and read em all maybe get an offical Guild wars guide book and plan a stradegy.

Cjlr · May 09, 2006, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Eles kinda suck now? Eles kinda such now? They've always been like that.

I suppose it's the design more than anything. They're given a bunch of skills that rely on AoE and/or DoT, which any decent player and for half a year now any monster wouldn't be caught dead in. Hehe... ouch. Caught dead in. Get it? Anyway, back on topic. Elementalists have a heck of a lot of niche roles. Wards, KD, heal party spam, blinding, all kinds of crap like that, but they are not and never have been the best at anything. Warriors out-damage them straight up, monks heal better, mesmers and necros "interfere" better, for lack of a better word, and hell, SS will outdamage the crap out of Meteor Shower (but that's another rant). And from what I've seen of Factions PvE, they even get out DP'd by all the Assmos running about. Well, maybe they're better blinders. Which oddly enough affects Ritualists... But since I haven't yet had the chance to play with the Assassin's and Ritualist's respective options in that area, I dunno if they actually are.

I love 'em anyway though. The vast majority of my time on GW has been spend on my ele. She might not be the most cost-effective solution, but it's a lot more fun than many of the alternatives. And it is just a game, after all. And they do make pretty decent secondary professions in most cases.

pah01 · May 10, 2006, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Tien are you trying to be funny?

There is a reason elementalists carry heal party for spamming using ether prodigy. Its because they suck at killing people. There is a reason almost all of the guilds in the top 10 run two warriors for killing.

The reason is that warriors do so much more damage than elementalists.

Please please read the first famous post of Ensign on "Why Nuking Sucks".

You can disagree with what is true all you want but what you and brother gilburt dont seem to get is that what you are arguing about is in fact a settled issue.

The top guilds all know this fact and if you are not spiking out characters with some kind of pure spike you must have warriors.

A member of esoteric warriors told a guildie of mine this.

"A build without warriors designed to pressure(do damage) sucks"

Sam

Evilsod · May 10, 2006, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Why does it seem the only skill thats getting mentioned for eles doing damage is Obsidian Flame? It hits for a rather pathetic 110 ish for exhaustion. Anyone whos ever played PvP on a caster will know that warriors can hit for more than this quite easily, Eviscerate + Executioners Strike is usually around 200-300 damage + Deep Wound in roughly the same time, all that takes is a few attacks to get warmed up as oppose to a few hours waiting for the ele to regen.